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Submitted by wayr2002 on Wed, 2008-05-28 22:07.

Question:

After watching the movie Zeitgeist I am challenging my Christian faith and am looking for good research material having to do with the subject of debunking Christianity and religion. Origins of religion and Christianity with, if possible, a good point counter point discussion. In other words both sides of the argument. Any reference material or comments of interest or welcome. If you could point me in a good direction for this sort of information I would be grateful. Thank you.

Atheist Answer

For those who came in late: Zeitgeist puts forward three major theories, the first of which is that the character and story of Jesus is based very closely on the Egyptian god Horus, and thus Christianity is descended from sun worship.

I would first recommend contributions to this site by Rook Hawkins, and those on the main RRS site (link at right). Next, just google "Zeitgeist Horus" and you'll be swamped with counterpoints. It's as if there are as many Christian responses to Zeitgeist as there are Christians who've seen it.

All up I'm terribly skeptical of the specific claims about Jesus in Zeitgeist, mainly because the other two major claims are way into conspiracy theory territory. So I wouldn't use it to examine doubts like yours.

Pick individual aspects of Jesus' life and research them out of context: virgin birth, exile, healing by touch, resurrections, posthumous appearances, etc. You'll find tons of examples, many of which pre-date 1 BC by centuries. If Jesus' story is based on something earlier, it doesn't have to be Horus. It could have come from anywhere.

If you like, come back and let us know what interesting stuff you find. Best of luck.

- SmartLX

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Healyhatman Says:
Fri, 2008-05-30 10:10

I was recommended Zeitgeist by a blog reader who said it would "blow my mind". I looked at the website, saw it looked like a collection of conspiracy theories and moved on. Is it worth seeing at all SmartLX?

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SmartLX Says:
Fri, 2008-05-30 17:17

I think the whole thing's on YouTube or MilkandCookies or both if you want it. I wouldn't bother looking further for it.

It's not like it just declares a bunch of stuff without any support at all; it cites about 200 different sources. The reliability of those sources is highly questionable though.

I'd say it would blow your mind if you accepted all of its claims in the process of watching it, because they're big claims. That's just not likely to happen.

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I <3 Jesus (not verified) Says:
Thu, 2008-06-12 17:11

Faith this one word means u have believe yet u have never seen. i have faith that my God has my life in his hands and nothing just happens. i want all u so called atheist to know that thinking theyre is no God is just a trick of the enemy to be saved and to u must repent and ask God to forgive u for ur sins and he will cast them away never to be remembered. think how merciful our God is to keep us even when we dont want to be kept. He woke u up this morning, my brothers and sisters do not lean on ur own understanding, u r not here by your own account, the reason why u have money or carsor a succssesful business is not because of u alone, God gives u these blessings and he takes them away. i hope my words touched someone God bless

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SmartLX Says:
Fri, 2008-06-13 00:13

Here we have a marvellous example of the mindset of a proselytising believer, and the inherent optimism in preaching.

Basically, this person has found a site where theist assertions are actively dismantled, ignored the topic and indeed the point of the site and posted a sermon full of blatant assertions. Some people really do think that cookie-cutter appeals like this will find their target anywhere they're fired off. Everyone's told to spread the word, whichever Word that is, but some get the idea that spreading is all you have to do. Never mind making it stick.

So who's this guy really aiming at? Not atheists, I think, because he doesn't seem to think we are atheists. No, I'd say the intended audience for this sermon is people who have come here still struggling with their own beliefs, trying to make sense of it all. Atheists aren't going to be affected by threats on behalf of something they don't believe in, but troubled believers might still have enough faith to be frightened into suppressing their doubts.

The threat given, and it is a threat albeit an indirect one, is not Hell as usual. It's the wrath of God on the living. The idea that everything you have is allowed you by God, and He can revoke it all in an instant. This is only scary if you think it's true. You'd be afraid of melting in the hot sun if you thought you were a living waxwork. If you don't accept the premise, it doesn't bother you. This is another reason why I think the post isn't aimed at atheists.

Of course, looking at the post superficially, it's the work of a troll. I don't mind trolls on this site, really, because they inspire excellent insights about belief and believers.

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